Curse

MiniRam · Jun 17, 2005, 02:18 PM // 14:18

I've looked over and over. I see almost no reason to upgrade strength on my W/N build where he is using a sword. Is this really true? Just not use to having a Warrior with no strength. Maxing out Swordsmanship and Death Magic. From a previous post here ...

Quote:

you had a normal, customized (20% more damage) 15-22 damage Dragon Sword, and a level 9 Swordsmanship attribute, each swing with the weapon would deal:

15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) = 13.88 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) = 20.36 maximum damage

While swinging the same sword with a level 12 attribute would deal:

15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) = 18.0 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) = 26.4 maximum damage

Apparently strength is only linked to the following ...
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/strength-id40.php
Most of those strength related skills can be replaced with Swordsmanship skills ... and there are quite a few swordsmanship skills that rock compared to strength skills.

I mainly use Final Thrust, Gash, Sever Artery, and a couple skills linked to tactics. None related to strength.

Just weird having a warrior with little to no strength. Just making sure that I am not missing anything.

-Miniram

The Red Knight · Jun 17, 2005, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Strength adds armor penetration and makes key skills like sprint last longer :b. Strength is how you get that bullshit 200 dmg final thrust on a monk

MiniRam · Jun 17, 2005, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Red Knight

Strength adds armor penetration and makes key skills like sprint last longer :b. Strength is how you get that bullshit 200 dmg final thrust on a monk

Explain how Strength is related to final thrust .... it is related to Swordsmanship only - not strength.

Strength seems to be applicable for armor penetration. However, it is ludicrously small. For every point of strength you get +1% armor penetration. Right now I am running a sword hilt that gives me +10% armor penetration

Again, it seems like strength is relatively useless when simply replacing like skills related to strength with ones related to swordsmanship. Yea, so it increases the amount of time I can sprint/rush. I don't care about sprinting with my build. I'm all about delivering big damage. Yes, I see the benefit in running ... and sometimes I equip it. But, most of the time I benefit more by having other skills on my bar .... like my necro Soul Feast that gives me 180+ health from a dead corpse or Putrid Explosion that deals 80+ damage to EVERY nearby foe. One time I hit like 8 foes with 80+ damage each. Insane. I also equip Watch Yourself to use in cases to protect the healers ... and me ... when I am defending them against melee attacks.

Anyone else want to take a shot at why Strength is important? So far I see that maxing out swordsmanship and tactics and one of my Necro skills to be the best choice. Strength seems relatively useless (when running similar swordsmanship skills).

deciimos · Jun 17, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Strength armor penetration is only applied to attack skills. So 10 str would be 10% armor penetration on any attack skill, including final thrust.

Acan Vishnu · Jun 17, 2005, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Strength gives +1% armor penetration for every level you have in it, that +armor penetration is applied whenever you use a skill. It allows for some nasty spike damage, as seen with Final Thrust.

Epinephrine · Jun 17, 2005, 04:14 PM // 16:14

I agree that the AP bonus of strength is small, and generally not worth maxing, but for 15 attribute points you can get 5% more penetration on all attack skills, which is 5.3% bonus damage vs AL60 and 9% bonus damage vs AL100, so if you are trying to squeeze a bit of extra damage in it works well. It also has skills in that line - if you aren't using strength skills there may be better places to invest, as it isn't a huge bonus. If you are using strength skills anyway, it is nice bonus damage.

Reiden Argrock · Jun 17, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniRam

you had a normal, customized (20% more damage) 15-22 damage Dragon Sword, and a level 9 Swordsmanship attribute, each swing with the weapon would deal:

15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) = 13.88 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) = 20.36 maximum damage

While swinging the same sword with a level 12 attribute would deal:

15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) = 18.0 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) = 26.4 maximum damage

-Miniram

what is this supposed to mean?
and the only way dmg on a weap would be less than what is specified would be if you don't meet the requirement, so if your having damage problems, I would suggest equipping a usable weapon.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 17, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Strength is to warriors as Expertise is to Rangers...

I also thought that str isn't that big a deal until you realize this...

IT'S A PERCENTAGE, not a set number. Thank goodness.

Can you imagine this?

20% from customization, 15% from weapon itself *if it's a gold one or something*, and 12% from strength WITH more % added on to hexes like Weaken armor?

I'm hoping / wondering if these percentages stack. 20+15+12+20=67% DAMAGE INCREASE?!?! Not to mention with each level you gain, your weapon damage goes up both max and min.

And people still wonder why a warrior hits for 200+ every few swings...

I have 8 points in str. cause I can't afford to add any more but it adds +30 hp to my max due to my beloved shield ^_^

MiniRam · Jun 17, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by deciimos

Strength armor penetration is only applied to attack skills. So 10 str would be 10% armor penetration on any attack skill, including final thrust.

I know. But, how is it good to waste attribute points on Strength when you can get that armor penetration from something else like a sword hilt? Furthermore, how is 10% armor penetration that impressive? For example, let's say that I normally hit for 35 damage. If I have 10% armor penetration what does that do to the damage? According to the formula above ... nothing. My guess is something to do with 1/10 of the 'hit' translates into full damage. That just doesn't seem like a lot to me. Is it?

MiniRam

Moskel · Jun 17, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiden Argrock

what is this supposed to mean?
and the only way dmg on a weap would be less than what is specified would be if you don't meet the requirement, so if your having damage problems, I would suggest equipping a usable weapon.

Read this: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

The apologize to the OP.

MiniRam · Jun 17, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I agree that the AP bonus of strength is small, and generally not worth maxing, but for 15 attribute points you can get 5% more penetration on all attack skills, which is 5.3% bonus damage vs AL60 and 9% bonus damage vs AL100, so if you are trying to squeeze a bit of extra damage in it works well. It also has skills in that line - if you aren't using strength skills there may be better places to invest, as it isn't a huge bonus. If you are using strength skills anyway, it is nice bonus damage.

How does 5% more penetration lead to 5.3% bonus on AL60 and a 9% bonus on AL100. Does that mean if you were at a strength of 10 you would see 18% bonus on AL100?

MiniRam

MiniRam · Jun 17, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiden Argrock

what is this supposed to mean?
and the only way dmg on a weap would be less than what is specified would be if you don't meet the requirement, so if your having damage problems, I would suggest equipping a usable weapon.

What are YOU talking about. I meet all requirements. My question was how does upping your strength translate into dealing a lot more damage as a warrior. The formulas show Swordsmanship only.

MiniRam

MiniRam · Jun 17, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Can you imagine this?

20% from customization, 15% from weapon itself *if it's a gold one or something*, and 12% from strength WITH more % added on to hexes like Weaken armor?

How does strength equate to a percentage adjustment to damage? I have never seen this formula before. Yet, here you are saying that adding to strength somehow gave somebody +12% damage.

MiniRam

Moskel · Jun 17, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Armor penetration is very significant because the amount of damage reduce by armor does not scale in a linear manner. As example 60AC is the break even point, at 0AC you take 300% damage at 100AC you take 50% damage.

So 15% penetration from 12 strength + superior rune is a significant boost to damage even as AC scales down because of the non-linear damage curve.

The max damage warrior setup is 16 sword, 15 strength if you're talking about just hitting things. Setup with 3 energy attacks + flourish, and then 3 adrenaline attacks leaving you 1 utility slot and 1 res signet. You should be able to constantly use attacks that enhance the damage of your sword even further.

Epinephrine · Jun 17, 2005, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Hmm, I think he misunderstand, perhaps. It is unfortunate that strength only affects attack skills, and that it is only 1% per level, but it does affect damage. It just isn't a huge effect.

Take a 15-22 sword, customised, with 12 swordmanship and 0 strength, 5 strength, 10 strength and 15 strength, for example.

Use an attack skill like Galrath Slash

You do +32 damage, so I believe it works as follows:
15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) +32 = 50.0 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) +32 = 58.4 maximum damage

for an average damage of 54.2.

At 0 strength vs AL 60 this is 54.2 damage, vs AL 100 it is only 27.1 damage.
At 5 strength vs AL 60 this is 57.1 damage, vs AL 100 it is only 29.6 damage.
At 10 strength vs AL 60 this is 60.1 damage, vs AL 100 it is only 32.2 damage.
At 15 strength vs AL 60 this is 63.3 damage, vs AL 100 it is only 35.1 damage.

So 15 strength is improving your hits vs a warrior by nearly 30%, vs a caster by only 17% or so.

Epinephrine · Jun 17, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniRam

How does 5% more penetration lead to 5.3% bonus on AL60 and a 9% bonus on AL100. Does that mean if you were at a strength of 10 you would see 18% bonus on AL100?

MiniRam

No, strength reduces the effective armour level - at 10 strength it reduces the AL by 10%, to 90% of the initial value. That's a reduction of 6AL vs a 60AL, of 10AL vs a 100AL.

Since the damage dealt is based on the calculated damage multiplied by a defensive adjustment, we can work out the effect of the damage. The defensive adjustment is

Damage dealt = damage delivered * defensive adjustment
defensive adjustment = 2^(60-armour level)/40, if you have an adjustment to the armour value you can plug it in as follows

defensive adjustment = 2^(60-(armour level+change))/40 which reaaranges to

defensive adjustment = 2^(60-armour level)/40 * 2^(-change)/40

so the change in damage dealt is actually = 2^(-change)/40

if your armour value is thus reduced by 5, it is thus a change of (-5), so the adjustment is 2^5/40, or 2^.125 = 1.090507733, or about 9% more damage. That's the adjustment on 100AL; the 60AL only gets reduced by 3, so 2^3/40 = 2^0.075 = 1.053361036, or about 5.3%

So to answer your question, at strength 10 you would see 2^10/40 = 2^0.25 = ~18.9% more damage vs 100AL, and only 2^6/40 = 2^0.15 = ~11% more vs 60AL.

MiniRam · Jun 17, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

So, what it ends up looking like is that if you have a strength of 10 then you are dealing about ~+10% more damage. I rounded off a little. But, generally speaking. We're talking about ~+10% more damage for a strength of 10. So if I hit for 50 damage normally ... now I am hitting for 55 damage. Ummm .... is it just me or does that sound like not a lot of difference considering you just dumped a crapload of attribute points into Strength?

If I dump those attribute points into my Necro then I can get some huge damage bonuses with Putrid Explosion. A lot more than 5 points.

MiniRam

MiniRam · Jun 17, 2005, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

So to answer your question, at strength 10 you would see 2^10/40 = 2^0.25 = ~18.9% more damage vs 100AL, and only 2^6/40 = 2^0.15 = ~11% more vs 60AL.

This is not true. Please view the armor penetration table at:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

Here is a copy/paste:

Code:

Effect of Armor Penetration 
Armor Level 0% Penetration 5% Penetration 10% Penetration 25% Penetration 50% Penetration 
40 141% 146% 152% 168% 200% 
50 119% 124% 130% 148% 183% 
60 100% 105% 111% 130% 168% 
70 84.1% 89.3% 94.9% 114% 154% 
80 70.7% 75.8% 81.2% 100% 141% 
90 59.5% 64.3% 69.5% 87.8% 130% 
100 50% 54.5% 59.5% 77.1% 119%

It is ~11% for AL60 and ~9.5% for AL100 with 10% penetration due to 10 strength.

MiniRam

Arithon · Jun 17, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Only warriors PRIMARIES have a STR attribute.

So what I would like to know is why have they made STR such a meaningless attribute I mean come on it adds 12% to armour penetration if maxed out at 12.

When I first read the user manual that came with the game on release is said STR adds 2% that was a nice bonus of 24%.

I would like to know why the dropped the 2% down to 1% when STR is the primary attribute for a the Warrior Main profession.

Epinephrine · Jun 17, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniRam

This is not true. Please view the armor penetration table at:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

It is ~11% for AL60 and ~9.5% for AL100 with 10% penetration due to 10 strength.

MiniRam

No, you are wrong. I am correct and in agreement with that table. I said 11% and 18.9%.

the improvement from 50% to 59.5% is 59.5/50 = 19%, which is roughly the 18.9% I quoted. I said that you deal 18.9% more damage, which is in fact the case, as you deal 1.189207115 times the damage.

I don't mind being corrected if wrong, but verify your facts before deciding that someone is mistaken and publicly labelling them so.